Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore join Courtney Hale to discuss salary transparency, lemonade stands, and a mutual love for Target.
If you learned how to manage your finances through trial and error, or if you are looking for ways to help your children improve their financial literacy, this episode is for you.
Tune in next week for a discussion about asking the right questions.
Links:
Financial Literacy Resource Recs:
Podcasts -
Books -
“MONEY Master the Game” - Tony Robbins
“Prince Charming Isn't Coming: How Women Get Smart About Money” - Barbara Stanny
“The Four Spiritual Laws of Prosperity: A Simple Guide to Unlimited Abundance” - Edwene Gaines
“You Are a Badass at Making Money: Master the Mindset of Wealth” - Jen Sincero
Full Transcript:
[00:00:00] And so if you just take a moment and you say we're learning about money through trial and error and the capitalistic country, what if we learn to drive the same way that we learned about money? Like that'd be a disaster, right? Yeah. I mean, it would be terrible and the consequences are the same.
[00:00:26] That was the voice of Courtney Hale, dreamer, financial literacy advocate and social entrepreneur. However, his most important title is father to his six year old daughter Ever. Courtney is the founder and chief hope dealer of Knowledge Bank, a social enterprise that helps improve the financial literacy of view.
[00:00:45] He is also the creator of Super Money Kids and Super Money Banks, which are designed to not only teach kids the foundations of money, but also support achievement in math. Courtney is forever inspired by the life of his wife, [00:01:00] Tia, who passed on May 18th, 2020. Today we're talking about salary transparency, lemonade stands, and a mutual love of Target.
[00:01:12] Hi everyone. We're your hosts Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore, co-founders of TRILUNA and this is the Wellness Community Magic podcast, a podcast with a pro- donut, anti-racist, Glenda- the- good -witch agenda. We're here to take on diet culture by making self-care realistic, sustainable, and inclusive.
[00:01:32] So settle in, get cozy and join us on our journey to build community and redefine wellness. Let's get started.
[00:01:43] So can we start with our favorite question? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. Let's do it. So our first question we always ask is not what your favorite donut is, but if you were a donut, what donut would you be? This is so easy for me. Like I would [00:02:00] absolutely be a glazed donut. Um, I mean, the glaze donut is classic, is timeless.
[00:02:09] You know, it's not seasonal, you know, it doesn't require any additional decor of feelings. It is what it is. And, and everybody loves the glazed donut because it's foundational, it's classic, it's simple. And I think in many ways, that's me. Like I don't need a lot of extra, I don't need a lot of flash, of flare. I'm pretty consistent in what I am and what I do.
[00:02:35] I am definitely, if there is anybody that has been a glazed donut, I am glazed donut. Okay. I love it. We love it. We're just going to start. Taking a poll on how many glaze donuts that we have. The word foundation comes up a lot. When people describe themselves as a glazed donut. I think the other Courtney was a glazed donut as well.
[00:02:58] Um, we like to think of [00:03:00] ourselves, the foundation of us are glazed donuts and they go through these transitions, right? Oh yeah. We have like fancy, we have a good foundation but like we, we got lots of sprinkles. Well, it's extra, it's extra boujee, glitter. Yeah. So we take that foundation and just go crazy with it, put a lot of extra shit on.
[00:03:22] Yeah. Just like us, extra. So yeah, I just want to start it off by saying, was it last year? It was last February. It was last February. Last February we did our first panel together. We asked you to be a part of our diversity and inclusion panel, but the supper club was about building diverse communities, building diverse communities.
[00:03:47] And we like to think that when we started this company, we were having those conversations before what happened this past summer. And we started with this particular [00:04:00] one and we had you there on the panel and I just wanted to say, thank you. And I feel like ever since we did that panel life has just happened, last year has happened.
[00:04:10] And we just want to check in with you before we jump in. How's everything going? How's life. How are you feeling? Um, you know, it's so crazy that that panel was a year ago because it, it doesn't seem like it was that long ago. And literally, you know, 30 days after that panel, I mean, life for everybody in the world completely changed.
[00:04:34] Many, and it just goes to show the power of an instant and why we have to appreciate every moment that we have, especially with those that we care the most about. You know, obviously from me, you know, for those that don't know, my wife passed, uh, in May of 2020 unexpectedly. You know, we were having a week and on a Saturday we were going to clean out our garage [00:05:00] and she said, Hey, you know, I'm not feeling good.
[00:05:02] I'm going to go lay down. Uh, we ended up taking her to a hospital that Saturday and she passed on Monday. So the power of an instant is, it goes beyond like explanation and importance. You know, how am I doing since we met last February, since my wife passed in May? I'm different and, you know, I'll never be the same, you know, and there's, there's, I'm not going to try to pretend to be something else.
[00:05:33] You lose somebody close to you and it, it changes you forever. In the midst of that, I will say that we are re-emerging. We are, you know, figuring out how to go about life in an, in a new way. We're happy. We realize just how tremendously blessed we are as a family. Um, my daughter and I are, are closer. Even work has a [00:06:00] different meaning for me now in that, you know, how financial literacy allows us to maximize the time that we are here on earth.
[00:06:09] And so like, I'm, I'm good. I love more, uh, I'm trying to be more present. You know, I'm taking better care of myself, so yeah, I mean, so this is where I am. It's just living in a larger space of gratitude. Wow. Well, thank you. You know, we are a wellness company and mental health is very important to us and we consider you our friend, you know, and we wanted to make sure, you know, we wanted to check on you basically.
[00:06:43] And so we thank you for sharing that. And we thank you for being honest with us, because so many times you ask people how they're doing and they're like, I mean, you said you're good but you broke down why you were good and that was appreciated. Yeah. I think it's hard to understand grief if you haven't [00:07:00] experienced it like that.
[00:07:00] And so I just appreciate your vulnerability in that space. Yeah. I've been telling people too that, you know, we had a lot of people that love us and are really thankful, but I'll be like, yo. If you really want to know how I feel, don't ask me because I'm going to tell you. I'm going to, you know, and, and, and you know, most of it, most of the time, I'm good, but you know, I definitely have a hard day. You know, if you not, if you not in an emotional spiritual space to accept my answer, don't tell me because I will tell you how I feel.
[00:07:27] But in some ways it's kind of my therapy as well. Absolutely. I think vulnerability is very powerful. So I'm about to change the subject, like super fast. Let's talk about money. Let's talk about finance and let's talk about Knowledge Bank. And why did you start it? And can you tell our audience what it is?
[00:07:49] Yeah. So, uh, what we do at Knowledge Bank, and we're slowly rebranding to Super Money Kids Co um, we designed experiences to improve the financial [00:08:00] literacy of youth. The idea is simple and we all share in the problem. There's just very little in our educational system, in our, in our development as young people that prepares us to manage our money.
[00:08:13] The problem is, the one thing that we all have in common when we turn 18, you know, regardless of our skin color, religion, culture, plans, for what we want to be when we grow up, the one thing that we all have in common is at some point we're going to have to manage our money. And despite this huge commonality, there's nobody really teaching us about money at an early age and we're learning through trial and error.
[00:08:41] And so if you just take a moment and you say we're learning about money through trial and error and the capitalistic country, what if we learn to drive the same way that we learned about money? Like, that'd be a disaster, right? Yeah. I mean, it would be terrible.
[00:09:00] [00:08:59] And the consequences are the same. The consequences of learning to drive by trial and error are the same consequences that exist by learning how to manage money through trial and error. You can hurt yourself, you could hurt somebody else. You know, you can die. This is all like real stuff. Like you can look at the data.
[00:09:21] And it says, like they're, they're very similar consequences. And so I worked in the financial services industry and I learned a lot and I just felt like I was a solution to a national problem that we had. And so I created a program initially, a summer program to teach kids about money during the summer.
[00:09:42] And, um, since that very first summer camp. I think it was like nine years ago, which just sounds ridiculous. I mean, some of those kids that were in their first program have gone to like graduate college and they've started their own businesses and all of that, you know, that stuff is really, really great, but, um, that's, that's where [00:10:00] we started. You know, that's the reason why we focus on financial literacy.
[00:10:04] Yeah. That's so important. We talk about this a lot. Actually, when we did our first retreat, when we were just little, little TRILUNA babies, we did a retreat. And as part of the compensation for our team, we gave them $50 and we said, you can do whatever you want with this money. We suggest that you put this in a betterment investment account.
[00:10:25] Just learn about it, watch it grow, see what it does, explore it. And it was because we had recently discovered the power of investing and personal finance and learning more about that and wanted to offer that to our team. And it was, it's such an impactful way to learn by trial and error in a way that is like contained, you know? It's like, you know, you have $50, you're going to put it in.
[00:10:49] You can watch it, but there wasn't, there wasn't a framework for us to like, have that conversation or to teach them how to do that. Even for ourselves. Like, I got really [00:11:00] into finance for a minute and listened to a bunch of podcasts and read some books and like tried to figure it out and still don't really know what I'm doing.
[00:11:08] Do you have recommendations? Like how do you even get, like, we've even gotten to talk about kids yet, but like as an adult, where do you start trying to figure this out? It's literally what you just said. I mean, you have to find the resources that resonate with you and just consume the content. Um, I really think that podcasts are the best way right now to really learn about just money in general.
[00:11:37] Um, if, if you're a big reader, you know, you can check out some books as well, but there's so many podcasts and it's, you can't consume the content from a podcast, much easier than you can a book, right? Because if I, if I'm sitting at my desk, I can listen to the podcast. If I go to the gym, I can listen to podcasts if I'm driving to my next destination, right?
[00:11:56] So you can consume more content faster. I think that's the [00:12:00] best way. I also think that the one resource that we are not utilizing enough is the stories from one another. That can be family members, friends, whoever is close to you. One of the things that I've always said I wanted to do with Knowledge Banking, just a mission of the organization which doesn't really have a financial return, is to just create a society where we're more comfortable just talking about money.
[00:12:30] And, you know, I, I don't know how to do that other than just encouraging people to, to have open conversations about it. But. You can learn some amazing things really, really quickly just by talking to somebody else. And it can be a person who don't know what thing about money. They could have made every mistake in the world, but you can learn from their mistakes.
[00:12:53] And that's what we tell parents when we're talking, telling parents that, you know, have conversations about money and we're teaching them [00:13:00] about how to use the Super Money Kid bank. We're like, Hey, don't let your past experiences contribute to fear and reluctance to have the conversation, like, let that be the fuel, like allow that moment of vulnerability and be like, you know, I really miss stuff up.
[00:13:16] Let me tell you what I did. And that stuff really resonates with people, but podcasts and books, the stories of others. I think that's the place where you start. Yeah, I think we, we lose a lot from being polite in this space. Um, like for example, when I worked my first job, I worked at this company for like four years.
[00:13:34] I was the VP of marketing. I was working crazy hours, working super hard, and we, none of us, obviously we're sharing our salary information with each other. But one day we all sat down and realized we were frustrated about the same thing and a junior associate who had been hired three and a half years after me told me that he was making the same amount of money as me and I quit that week because I realized in having a vulnerable conversation [00:14:00] about that being open about it, that I was being undervalued.
[00:14:03] But I never would have known that if we hadn't been vulnerable enough in that space to be like, Hey, this is my salary. I'm just going to put that out there. It's easier to get taken advantage of if you don't know. If you don't have awareness around money in this space.
[00:14:18] Yeah. I mean, I'm sure most of us, I don't know about you Liz cause your mom is very to the point. Um, but growing up a lot of times, you know, I was told you, don't tell people what you make. You know, you don't have those types of conversations.
[00:14:33] And then when I was twenty-five and I started into sales and the potential to make a lot of money. My boss sent me down and he was like, look, our families then talk to us about money and we're in the position that we could make more money than our parents. And it's important that we, as a team talk about this. And then in sales, it's kind of out there, right?
[00:14:57] Like everybody's numbers out there. If you really want [00:15:00] to calculate somebody's salary, you can do that. You know, so everybody, it just draws conversation anyway, but I'm grateful for that because had I not been a sales person those conversations would be very awkward for me. And Liz will tell you, I'm the first one to talk about money all times.
[00:15:16] I'm not shy about the fact to talk about money, even when I don't have any. Yeah. And, and I think it's, you know, to, to both of those points, it's even more important for women, people of color, to be comfortable talking about money because we do make 75 cents on a dollar to what a white male makes and there's no justification for it.
[00:15:41] We just find ourselves in bad positions. I have been in a, a really bad position to when I was incorporating, found out through the grapevine that I was making a lot less than some of the people I was working with, um, with less responsibility. And I [00:16:00] remember very vividly in my interview for this job. It was pretty much determined in that, in that interview that they were going to give me the job.
[00:16:07] And I had what my salary expectation was. And in the interview, the person I was being interviewed by, I said, would you be open to taking, it was like $3,000 less. And I remember just being like, let me. 30,000 it's $3,000. Like, I mean, I was like, yeah, it would be, you know, it wouldn't be a deal breaker, but I should've been looking at it differently.
[00:16:33] Like it's not a lot of money, so why are you trying to take that out of my compensation? And like, I am worth the $3,000, right? And so as we talk about money, we're also talking about like our self-worth and, and how we're able to sell ourselves and market ourselves. Like it is a confidence booster as well, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's really important to get comfortable with these conversations.
[00:17:00] [00:16:59] So we're talking about this as adults and obviously still have like a lot of stuff that we're unpacking. So what made you decide to do this with children and to start young and do this work there? There are a couple of different reasons. I think the biggest reason was, um, there's a Frederick Douglas quote that says "It's easier to build strong children than to repair broken men."
[00:17:24] And so the opportunity to have more impact was larger with youth. And it was a space that there there's virtually nobody doing the work. And then they, that created some challenges for me as well. But, um, there was, uh, there was a larger potential to have more impact. And then also like on the adult side, there are a lot of organizations that do some type of financial education.
[00:17:49] And I'm kind of hesitant even to say that, but like now, you know, we have the podcast and we have the social media brands. And so there's content that's [00:18:00] out there much more now than it was when I first started doing the work with Knowledge Bank. But to that point, there was just a bigger opportunity. Um, and I felt like I could leverage my creativity more with youth than I could with adults.
[00:18:16] So speaking of the whole family, you know, there is no way that we can do this podcast without bringing up Ever. Ever is, I mean, she's my she's everything that I want to be. And she's like, how old is she? Ever, Ever is Courtney's daughter. She's six but she is a whole vibe. She is a whole, um, I'm a fan, you know how we like follow Instagram influencers and stuff.
[00:18:47] Like, I feel like I'm, uh, I'm fan girling. Yeah. But I wanted to ask you, what are your conversations look like with her when it comes to financing and money? Yeah. [00:19:00] Um, so, you know, we have the Super Money Kid bank and that bank was inspired by her. Um, and I I've told this story before, but you know, our family used to spend a lot of time in Target.
[00:19:13] It was just like something we did when we were just. Ashley loves Target. So this is like a, it was just an easy thing for us to do. Let's just get up and go to Target. And we would probably go like twice a week as a family. And every time we would go, man, she would just, she asked for everything and it got overwhelming for us.
[00:19:35] And were people, you know, my wife and I, we're people we don't get overwhelmed easily, but it was like taking a breath out. It was, was like, you know, we have to start having some conversations about like plans and what we do with our money. And so that's where it kind of, the save, spend, share came from is like having plans for your money when we're going somewhere or we're about to do something, how much money do you need?
[00:20:00] [00:19:59] So that was the first piece. It was just about, Hey, we're going somewhere. We have to have a plan for what we're going to do, because we can't just be out here, just impulse buying everything and we'll have we, you know, we have money like that, you know, to where we can just buy at all. And so that was a startup.
[00:20:18] It was just like, Hey, there's value to money. Money allows us to buy things. Let's start looking at the prices on the things that you want to buy. Let's, let's compare prices. It also allowed us to start doing some cool things with math as well. The next thing that we started doing was okay, you understand that.
[00:20:37] You know, money has value and you can buy things. Let's create opportunities for you to earn money. And so we got with her and some of our friends, we, uh, we used to call them the tot squad. Now we'll call them like the T squad. Cause they're not like toddlers anymore. And it's ever in four of our friends and they've done lemonade stands in the winter. They do tot [00:21:00] chocolate so they say like hot chocolate. They would do two yard sales a year. So like of springtime yard sale and a winter time yard sale. And these were all just different things that they did to earn money in the end, and they knew that. It was like, okay, in order to get money, you have to work for it.
[00:21:17] You had to figure out different things that you can do to, you know, sale product service or whatever to make money. And so they got to see that they got to do the transactions. They got to see the money in the cash box. You know, they were a part of the planning for these different things. We hadn't done anything unfortunately in the last year, because you know, COVID has just disrupted that, but she got to go through the process of earning and planning and recently, you know, I just hadn't been on my game as much as we have been in the past, which is for multiple reasons, but Ever went skating Sunday.
[00:21:52] And it warmed my heart so much. She was getting ready to go skating. And she was like, Oh, I'm going skating. Give me my [00:22:00] spend bank. I need to get some money out because I think I'm going to want an icey, um, probably nachos.
[00:22:07] So I need to see how much money I need. And, and we really just hadn't had many conversations. We did a series of videos like last year when we first kind of like got into COVID that were really, really popular and really, really good. Um, but we just hadn't been doing a lot because we're just trying to figure life out.
[00:22:27] Um, and when she did that and when she said that, like it really, really warmed my heart because the things that we had been talking about for the last few years, they've stuck with her. Right. And now she's taking ownership of her money and what she wants to do. And it honestly, it, it, for me, it was just like, alright, we need to get back on it.
[00:22:46] So anyway, so that's like, that's what our conversations look like. Um, when we're talking about money, we bought her first stock last year. Um, we bought some, uh, some Southwest stock. You know, I've talked to her about [00:23:00] ownership and, and made the, the relationship of her and her lemonade stand and her being an owner in that, and her buying stock allows her to be owner in an airline company.
[00:23:11] Oh, she got a huge kick out of that. Um, and she was like whaaat! I think there's some video out there with that response as well. But yeah, it is really simple. And it's, and it's something that any parent at any income level can do. Any parent can do all those things. Yeah. That's actually how I got started in business. So I want to tell a little story.
[00:23:33] Both my parents were small business owners and my mom started hers I think shortly after I was born. And my dad, before I was born, my parents met there. So we grew up, my dad owned a garden center, my mom owned a construction company, and they had the same building. So my dad was on the bottom floor of this nursery,
[00:23:49] mom was on the top floor with porch company, and we had to work for our money, always. Like my mom wasn't letting us have anything without earning it. And yeah, [00:24:00] she paid us a quarter, no matter what the job was, we got one quarter. And so when they started the businesses we realize, okay, we have a wider audience now.
[00:24:08] I don't have to just ask my mother for quarters. We can start lemonade stands. We can start all these businesses. And so we did, we started a lemonade stand and then my sister and I started getting competitive about our lemonade stands and I would have a bake sale and she would have a lemonade stand and we'd have to compare.
[00:24:23] And as we got older, those things continued to evolve. And then I knew that I wanted this one particular American Girl Doll. And so I started a lemonade stand to raise money to start a daycare. I then raised enough money to buy the American Girl Doll, but then decided to use it to start the daycare. And then no one showed up on our first day.
[00:24:45] And so I had my first business failure at like 10, but it was like that and watching my parents inspired a love of business for me of like understanding numbers as money and understanding how one thing benefits another benefits another and [00:25:00] it grows that way. And now here we are stuck as business owners for the rest of our lives.
[00:25:04] I don't think we'll ever be able to go back. Yeah. I mean, my story is very familiar to Evers. Like we would go to stores and I would want a lot, a lot. And my mom would be like, well, you gotta work to have these things. Like I go to work everyday, you have to work. Very much like Liz, I was like okay, so what am I going to do?
[00:25:26] And I'm like, okay, I'm the oldest kid on my block so I could watch all of these other kids. So let's, let's run this hustle. And I made, I drew out my flyers and went and passed them out. And when I got into sales and you controlled your money, like the first commission job I ever had, it was terrified. It was like, Oh my God, what if I don't sell anything, but then when you start doing good and then you start to be able to match or double what your base is I was like, this is great.
[00:25:55] I will never, ever, ever have a job that's not commission-based because I loved [00:26:00] it so much. But I think both of those are testaments to like exactly what you said earlier. Learning young, it really takes it to the rest of your life. And I just have to say this. Although my childhood store was very similar to Evers.
[00:26:13] My adult story is very similar to Evers when it comes to Target. Okay. Target has, Target, you got to go in with a plan. Okay. Like, and my husband, he's very eyes open now when Target bags come home cause he's like, well, you said you are going to get this, this and this, but you came back with like six bags, like what's going on?
[00:26:37] It's just my happy place. It makes me happy. I get it, I get it. And, and, you know, the, the thing is just listening to all of us, talk about like children and you guys' childhood. The thing that I think I would want parents to really understand is that when you're teaching kids about money, it's really not just about the money.
[00:26:57] I mean, you're teaching them work ethic. You're teaching [00:27:00] them, you're responsible. You're helping them build confidence through decision-making. You may be cultivating this young entrepreneur. Right. You, you just never know. And so there are other lessons that kids learn when you're talking to them about money as well.
[00:27:16] Yeah. And especially autonomy. I think that autonomy piece is so important. It was for me as a child, as a Enneagram three, who is very achievement based. I loved knowing that that was mine. Like I earned that money. That was mine. I could do what I want with it at that point, you know, it's, that was a big piece, I think, as a kid. Speaking of Enneagrams, did we talk about yours?
[00:27:39] What's your Enneagram? Do you know yours?
[00:27:44] I feel like a nine or a two? I need to go back. He might be a two. I just need to go back and do it. Yeah. I need to know. We're going to be bugging you until we know. And then we'll announce it again. [00:28:00] I mean, we could talk to you forever. And Courtney, we just appreciate this friendship. We actually met around kids. Do y'all remember that?
[00:28:07] When we went to the classic school with our friend and we all went to the elementary school and we were actually around kids when we met. And then I think me and Courtney saw each other at another networking event. I was like, Liz, we have to work with him. And she learned more about your company and financing and investing as Liz's jam.
[00:28:28] It really was last year during like a segment of life. That's all she wanted to talk about. But again, we just thank you so much. We thank you for letting us know about your wellness and where you are. I think, I think that's it. And that's all. Courtney, we appreciate you, my friend. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Wellness Community Magic podcast.
[00:28:52] If you liked this episode, leave us a review or drop us a message and tell us your favorite part. You can find us on Twitter at [00:29:00] wellness_pod or online at TRILUNAwellness.com/podcast. Tune in next week for more tough but necessary conversations about the future of self-care. If you're interested in learning more about TRILUNA or ordering one of our wellness gift boxes for a loved one or yourself, check out our website at TRILUNAwellness.com.