Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore join Kia Jarmon to discuss philanthropy, decolonizing yoga, and "professionalism" (in air quotes).
If you struggle with the process of unlearning or asking the right questions, this episode is for you.
Tune in next week for a check in with Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore.
Links:
Book Recommendations:
Library of Congress: Slave Narratives from Nashville, TN
The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters - Priya Parker
The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness - Michelle Alexander
So You Want to Talk About Race - Ijeoma Oluo
Mediocre: The Dangerous Legacy of White Male America - Ijeoma Oluo
Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents - Isabel Wilkerson
White Rage: The Unspoken Truth of Our Racial Divide - Carol Anderson
The History of White People - Nell Irvin Painter
Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome: America's Legacy of Enduring Injury and Healing - Joy A. Degruy
White Tears/Brown Scars: How White Feminism Betrays Women of Color - Ruby Hamad
Be the Bridge: Pursuing God's Heart for Racial Reconciliation - Latasha Morrison, Daniel Hill
From Slavery to Freedom - Franklin Franklin
Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia - Sabrina Strings
Full Transcript:
[00:00:00] We would like to open this episode with a trigger warning as it contains discussion of racism, bigotry, and or other race-based trauma. If this does not feel safe for you at this time, please skip the episode and come back to it if and when you're ready. Maybe this is the question. Am I willing to be wrong?
[00:00:19] You know, am I willing to be wrong about almost everything that I've learned and giving yourself the grace to believe that your parents did the best that they could with the resources that they had. Those resources may have not been great and what they taught you might not have been great, but they did the best they could.
[00:00:37] You get a chance to make a different decision about how you want to identify in the world, how you want to socialize with the world and who you want to be. That was a powerful voice of Kia Jarman. Kia works at the intersection of community, culture, crisis and communication while guiding leaders, organizations, and systems on a path to improvement.
[00:00:58] Central to Jarmin's work is asking the [00:01:00] right questions, disrupting existing processes and designing solutions that get to the root of a challenge. Today we're talking about philanthropy, economizing yoga, and "professionalism" in air quotes.
[00:01:13] Hi everyone. We're your hosts, Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore, co founders of TRILUNA and this is the Wellness Community Magic podca. A podcast with a pro- donut, anti-racist, Glenda- the- good- witch agenda. We're here to take on diet culture by making self-care realistic, sustainable, and inclusive. So settle in, get cozy and join us on our journey to build community and redefined wellness.
[00:01:39] Let's get started.
[00:01:43] Okay. Kia, we start with our favorite question in all the world. If you were a donut what kind of donut would you be? I think I would be glaze. And I know that that doesn't, that seems counter to who I think people know who I am, [00:02:00] because it's very simple, but I like for people to maybe underestimate my amazingness.
[00:02:06] So I think glaze is pretty amazing because it's simple, but yet it is delightful. Yeah. So you said that it is counter to what people usually think. And one of my favorite things about you is that you describe yourself as a kiss with a fist. Will you explain to our audience what that means and how that shows up in your life, your personal life and your business life?
[00:02:30] Yes. So, um, I did not name myself that, um, because it's probably just, it's just very brilliant, but someone I used to, um, have an online show and the producer called me back and I took it as a compliment and she meant it that way. Uh, how I show up in that way is really candid care.
[00:02:49] My job is to make sure that I disrupt the process that you already have in your brain personally and professionally and then, but also do it with grace [00:03:00] and integrity and love so that you know that you're not alone because I think sometimes we take people. We, we take them to a point and then we don't bring them back.
[00:03:09] And so my job is to get you there, get you to think deeper. And then also to bring you back to a place of as whole, as you can be within your journey. And then personally, that's probably mostly professionally and personally, I believe how it shows up is I'm very boundaried. I'm rigid in some ways so that I can be very selfless in the ways that makes sense.
[00:03:31] So I have to be at moments of selfishness or, um, moments where I'm very much to myself and taking care of myself and believing in rebellious joy so that I can be the most available when I need to be. When you filled out our form about what you wish people knew, you said, I wish people knew that I'm not a robot. Though I'm extremely disciplined and boundaried, I lead with grace and my intention is to transform lives.
[00:03:57] I just, that's so beautiful. Will you just expand [00:04:00] on that just a little bit? Yes. I'm an Enneagram eight. I'm a Leo. Leo, Leo rising so lots of fire. Um, I am, IMTJ like whatever you're into, I am probably among the most dominant of personalities in all the assessments and all of the things.
[00:04:19] And so what that does on one side is it teaches people how to treat you and how to use your time and how to assign value to you. It also teaches them that you are robotic or that you are very disciplined and we're not used to the level of discipline sometimes that I present. So I believe that's why, um, I want people to know that I am a boundary person, but I also am a very grateful person.
[00:04:47] Um, sometimes people will come into my inbox and say, I've been trying to get up the courage to talk to you for months. Or one woman even said for years, and it always hurts my feelings, not against [00:05:00] them, but I'm like, gosh, I never want people to think I'm unapproachable in that way.
[00:05:04] And so that's really where that comes from. What I want people to know is that you can approach me. You can contact me. I will try to give you all that I have when I have the time to do that. I'm going to say that it's just something about an eight that projects that energy to people. I am very attracted to eights.
[00:05:27] My husband is an eight and some of my favorite people, including yourself are eights. But I think that people get that from eights. Liz's mom is an eight. And she comes off with that demeanor very much so, but when you get to know her and know who she is as a person, she will give you anything in this world.
[00:05:45] And I feel the same about you. We've been working with Kia for some time now, and I feel like every time that I ask you to be a part of a collaboration or something, you're just so willing even if you're like booked [00:06:00] up, you make space for us. And I just can't tell you how much that means to both Liz and I, because I mean, we fan girl over you, you give I'm actually where you're a wing seven, I'm a seven wing eight and I really feel like since I've been connected to you, you actually give me the courage to like, speak the voice like that I need to say and be unapologetic about it. And I thank you for that. I mean, I can't even tell you what that's done for me personally and professionally. Yes, thank you. I feel the same about the two of you.
[00:06:39] I believe that you, you all have created something that is courageous, but it's so required. And courage does not come without sacrifice and you all have sacrificed in that way. And I feel that way a lot about my life, which is why I have to be, you know, more boundaried and more disciplined because if not it [00:07:00] will, this life that we're choosing to lead, that we've been graced with having.
[00:07:05] Yeah, it could take us down. Um, it could take it down the rabbit hole, right? I mean, you just scroll a couple of good times on social media. If you do not have some foundation and you don't know what you're sacrificing your why is for it can really take you down. Something I think that's so special about eights is that they have this harder outer shell, but they have this really soft, vulnerable, inner child that is always seeking wonder and always fighting for the underdog.
[00:07:33] It's like, it just seems to be omnipresent with eights. So it seems no surprise to me that you ended up in philanthropy. Will you talk about your journey to get there and how that happened and what you do in that space now? Yeah, I, I believe that. So I'm a, I'm a lifetime member of girl Scouts. And, um, I joined at a very young age.
[00:07:52] So, um, over 30 years now that I've been a member and I believe that's a big part of what that [00:08:00] leadership training for girls and for adults does, is it helps you to see how to support other people. As I got older and now as I, um, have. Co founded the black philanthropy initiative. And in particular, the give black give back initiative with the community foundation in middle Tennessee.
[00:08:18] One of the things I'm really working on is the decolonizing philanthropy and reclaiming philanthropy and what that means because the origins of philanthropy are based in racist ideologies. They were based on what we would consider good intentions, which is called for, we will help the way we want to help to keep people impoverished or to keep them in need of us.
[00:08:43] And that's really what philanthropy was birthed out of. And then at birth, the charity movement, which is what nonprofits are, they're considered charities. And so I've been really pushing hard to get people, in particular black people, to understand that we are some of the largest givers.
[00:08:59] If you look at [00:09:00] the numbers, um, we give about $13 billion with a B, and that's just what's trackable. And we give in so many other ways, think about how many times you show up to organizations and give your time you volunteer and you don't write it down because it's not necessarily culturally important for us to say, you know, I volunteered 15 hours this month.
[00:09:19] It's important for us to take care of our community. We've done that. We send people to college. We put money in the hands of college students, or you know, that student who has a dream or that person who has a dream after high school. Cool. And we say, you're go on your way. We believe in you. We send food to our communities.
[00:09:34] We read books in schools. We do those things all the time. So my journey was really seeing that philanthropy looked a very particular type of way to the world, but what I was experiencing or what I was seeing was all these amazing people who I know give, who I know do and who were not being amplified in the way that I believed was important because there's a whole community of people across the world who [00:10:00] are giving in some way.
[00:10:01] And so that's a lot of what I've been working on over the past few years is really trying to reclaim the language of philanthropy as this, you give $1 that's makes you a philanthropist. If you give a million dollars, it makes you a philanthropist. You don't need your name on the side of a building though.
[00:10:15] And that's what we've been taught. And we've been told that we only get access to that word when we get to a certain tax bracket. And I believe that that is of course the origin of our country is to create that level of confusion for people. But if you are giving of your time, your efforts, your treasure in some way, you are indeed a philanthropist.
[00:10:35] I just want to know personally, you do all the things and we'll talk about, we'll get more into all the things, but when you were young, what is it that you inspired to be? And I also asked this because one time you put on Facebook, if you could say, I could be anything, what would you say? And you had all of these things, right?
[00:10:57] And so I just need to know when you were young and [00:11:00] you were growing up, what is it that you want it to be? I want it to be a teacher. And I think that's what I became.
[00:11:09] As a teacher, I wanted to teach English. I really wanted to be an English professor because I really, I appreciate the language. And as I've gotten older, I appreciate it more from an origin. Story, you know, the etymology of it, the linguistics of it. How did we get here? Why is this word important over this word?
[00:11:30] Why is this language important over this? How do we prioritize language? How do we see people communicate? And so I became a communicator, right. And an educator, but, um, I think I accomplished what I was supposed to accomplish, but I wanted to be a teacher. I'm going to say that was the same for both of us.
[00:11:46] Liz wanted to be an English teacher. I was wanting it to be an elementary school teacher, which I was before I got into sales, but I didn't ever make that connection between the three of us. My degree is actually in [00:12:00] education. And that's interesting. I did not know that, but mine was English literature.
[00:12:04] That was my major in college. And I have been really struggling with my major lately and how we have used proper grammar to, I'm still trying to figure out how I want to say this, but like how we've used proper grammar to subjugate those with out access to that level of education because they're arbitrary rules right there.
[00:12:29] They are rules that we have created that were created largely by white men. And now we're trying to use them to say that you aren't, you know, well-spoken or you aren't using it correctly, if you aren't using these arbitrary rules, I'm like, it's really making me question a lot about my English major.
[00:12:47] Yeah. Yeah. Um, what I would encourage listeners to do is look at their, whatever industry they're in and the, and they would find the same to be true in their industry as well. That during Black History Month it's important for us to know that a [00:13:00] lot of inventions and a lot of things come from black people. Who is the one who takes it to market and then is able to elevate that theory and or practice are usually white men.
[00:13:09] And that's in many industries. If you look at educational, communication, you look at psychology, you look at a medicine. You look at almost every industry and there's going to be a white man theorist who shared this information.
[00:13:22] That's one part I want listeners to get the other part, which I think we'll get to at some point. Um, what you're talking about is the larger conversation around how racism shows up in our community. And one of those ways is, um, what I'll use is my air quotes around professionalism and we professionalized language.
[00:13:42] We professionalize hair and dress. Those are three areas I can talk, you know, speak about really quickly, but I'll talk about language because you brought it up. We don't acknowledge that there are communities of people who are bilingual, multilingual, bicultural people. Black people are those people. [00:14:00] We have another language as well.
[00:14:02] African-American vernacular English or black English is an actual recognized dialect. And so what I tell people is that if you especially workplaces, what is professional, the ability to do the work or the ability to say that they can do the work. It's important that we can do the work. And I don't necessarily care if you drop your G off the end of a word that has ING, um, or if you pronounce a word like ask as ax. That's what starts to get into cultural fit and cultural norms, which are based in white culture and white value system. Because that's the dominant culture in our community and in our world, then that's what we advance, which is that people who speak articulately like myself and like the two of you, we advance in certain ways.
[00:14:50] And then people, when I go to community meetings and do community engagement work and talk about government processes and someone comes and they don't look in accordance [00:15:00] with the, using air quotes again, professional standards, then we dismiss them as, as being a non-expert, but everyone is an expert at their own lived experience.
[00:15:11] They can articulate that in whatever language is necessary. So we don't mind, to some degree we do mind, but we understand when someone speaks in another language, as it relates to translatable language, you know, you speak Mandarin or Spanish or any other language that we see as othering. So we look at that and we say, Oh, that's their language.
[00:15:34] And yes, they should speak English, but that's their language. But we don't see that in other communities like in the black community where there is also a subculture or sub language that is just as important and just as valuable and it doesn't make you a less of a person or less professional because you use different dialects in that.
[00:15:54] Yeah. I, and I'm seeing this too. And so we just read Priya Parker's [00:16:00] "The Art of Gathering" which is a beautiful book, but she talks about how we use manners and politeness in the same way. Again, another completely arbitrary set of rules that are used to deem whether or not you are socially acceptable. And so I've been having this like kind of personal Renaissance of looking at all the things that I believe to be true that I have been told my life are true and saying, okay, is that a real thing?
[00:16:29] Or is that something that is created by white men specifically in an effort to keep white men and white women in positions of power. Yeah. And that's a good question, right? That's the question? Is this something that I learned? I was socialized to this. I was taught this, but I never, um, I never experienced it.
[00:16:50] I just believed it. This is nothing I studied. I didn't go further. I didn't ask someone of a different culture, ethnicity. I have not engaged with them to know that this is not [00:17:00] there, again we can understand going to a different country and realizing that we might put both hands on our table, on the table and in other cultures they only have one hand on the table.
[00:17:11] We can understand that. We don't understand it in our own country, but that's also the main origin I would say of white supremacy is to create confusion. It's very individualized confusion too. So it's like, I can do this, but you can't do that. So you, other person can't do this thing.
[00:17:27] And so you're, you're seeing that in your studies now, but absolutely manners and politeness. And Nashville's, specifically Nashville nice and we use that, um, niceness to cover up the harmful and sometimes violent ways in which we operate with each other. I, I do want to talk to you about what your inspiration was behind launching the Black Culture Club because I'm a fan.
[00:17:55] I told Liz, I was like, we're going to support this. We're going to push this. [00:18:00] And she came in today and she was like, I really, really like Kia's stuff. And so can you tell us your inspiration behind that? Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. One is that, um, for me to support more black arts, so I have a house full of art. Um, so I enjoy that.
[00:18:19] I of course enjoy giving to organizations and supporting them and whether that's in funds or sometimes they contact me through another initiative, I have the nonprofit equity collaborative and they just need support. And so they need strategic planning advice, or they need help on communication planning or whatever.
[00:18:36] And so I'm able to support them in that way, so I use those funds to support those things. So that's the one, it's just bringing in that residual income that helps to support and offset those things. The other part, though, the Black Culture Club, the club everyone wants to be in is really indicative of where we are as a society.
[00:18:54] We really enjoy the rhythm, but no blues, as it would be said. We [00:19:00] enjoy black culture and blackness as a trend and blackness as a concept. We do not enjoy or appreciate or value black people. And they're not exclusive of each other. They have to go together. And so it was important for me to have something that elevates, um, black humanity, because I realized that we lack, uh, as a world, understanding that black people are people. And because we haven't been seen that way in so long and people who may listen to this will say I'm a good person, right? I don't believe that I, all my friends are, and I have friends who are black or I have cousins, or, you know, we always look for those.
[00:19:39] Like I have this that's black so I'm a good person. This is not talking about any individual. And I, and I got to be careful about that. Yeah. On social media you see conversations about individual racist or individual. But I'm talking about as a culture, that's what I want to elevate, not an individual person, but an entire [00:20:00] culture of people.
[00:20:01] An entire community of people need to be elevated against what has been happening in our world. So I just, I love sweatshirts. I love sayings on shirts. And so I created a product that spoke to my desire, but also what I wanted to see for the world. Well, it spoke to my desire to, but you wrote in your bio that you work and asking the right questions.
[00:20:23] Can you tell us more about what that means and how you identify with the right questions? Yeah. What I've learned is that, um, we live in a society that wants very quick results and probably in the beginning of my career, because I'm a solutionist I can solve almost any problem. I can, you can bring anything before me for the most art, and I'm going to find a way for us to get to it.
[00:20:47] And it's probably going to be something that either we haven't thought of before, or it's going to be radically different than you would have ever thought of. So that's what I was known for was always having these good solutions. But the thing about it is [00:21:00] what I wanted to start getting in the business of was asking people really good questions so that they could start to teach themselves and train themselves to ask questions because in your life, whether it's your meditative practice, whether it's your professional business, you're not going to always have the answer.
[00:21:15] And in particular, working in some of the topics I work in. You don't always, it's not a straight answer for every single thing. There is no straight line. I say successes is a figly- line. So if you can ask yourself the questions, then you might be able to get there. So a lot of times when I lead workshops, now I'm often identifying questions throughout the workshop for people to think about.
[00:21:36] So how do we come up with those questions? Um, it's really about, like I said, trying to. Trying to strengthen that muscle. It's kind of like, you're good. Right. You know what you're good should be doing if you strengthened it. But if you don't, you have no clue that that pit in your stomach really is telling you don't do that.
[00:21:53] So it's the same with asking questions. So if someone was to say, you know, come in and help us to solve [00:22:00] our, um, can you come in and do a anti-racism or implicit bias training or diversity inclusion training. You know, sometimes those questions are, but you know, how can I be racist if I'm a good person?
[00:22:12] You know? So then my question then might be, let's go back to your history. When did you realize that you were a white person? When did you realize you were a black person? When did you realize... it's something they have to start asking themselves questions to say, Oh, that's where this comes from. So it's not a perfect answer.
[00:22:28] But that's the point is that there's no, I lead people, uh, hopefully in a place where it's an untied bow. It's not going to always feel great. So you have to find your own questions. There is no perfect way to get there, but really it's about reframing the question for yourself. When I began my meditation practice, it wasn't about, you know, you are going to meditate for 15 minutes.
[00:22:51] It was, did I give myself enough grace to meditate today? Right? It's just switching the perspective about how you approach [00:23:00] something. So I like to say the perspective is my super power. Um, just changing the perspective to get a different outcome. And maybe this is the question. Am I willing to be wrong? You know, am I willing to be wrong about almost everything that I've learned and giving yourself the grace to believe that your parents did the best that they could with the resources that they had. Those resources may have not been great.
[00:23:25] And what they taught you might not have been great, but they did the best they could. You get a chance to make a different decision about how you want to identify in the world, how you want to socialize with the world and who you want to be. Um, and that's the permission we haven't given ourselves. Is willingness to unlearn and be wrong because we are in a society of experts.
[00:23:47] And I tell people I'm not an expert at any of these topics around diversity, equity, inclusion, anti-racism. And I do that so intentionally because if I'm elevated to [00:24:00] expert, then I believe I will stop learning the way I'm supposed to learn. And this is a continual practice and the continual journey of learning.
[00:24:08] And I refuse to not learn. We had you recently on our, a series that we did and you spoke on body politics. And we talked a lot about yoga in that class. And you said something that has that stuck with me so much. You said yoga can be part of your anti-racism journey if you're intentional about how you do that.
[00:24:32] And that really stuck with me. And I think that it was something that the group we were speaking to really needed to hear. And I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind expanding on that for our podcast audience, how your movement practice can be part of your anti-racism journey. Yeah, well part of yoga as a practice is supposed to be around creating your own safe space to unify with yourself.
[00:24:57] Right? It's supposed to be that [00:25:00] and as a part of that, it's supposed to be a time to explore all types of things. And for me, even in my own yoga practice, in my own meditation practice, it was about exploring sometimes my anger, sometimes my attitudes towards things. I mean, I began meditating because I was, uh, about the jacket person up. And I realized that that probably wasn't the best situation and I'm being very graceful with myself cause it was not cute. So in that practice, you can begin to dismantle what you know about yourself as an individual and then structurally about the organization you're part of.
[00:25:37] So we were working with an organization and really questioning, you know, yoga has become commodified. It has become very trendy. And at the origin of what it is, it is a practice for people, um, who do not live in this country. It's origin does not come from here. The language does not come from here. The music does not come from here.
[00:25:58] And so, but we have co-opted it [00:26:00] and made it hip hop and we've made it fun. And we've made a jazzy and we have namasted to death, which is not even a term that is used traditionally in a yoga practice. So we have done all this co-opting. And so part of that statement was about, how do you question through your practicing your process, how you are helping people to unify with themselves?
[00:26:25] How are you helping yourself as an instructor or leader helping people to do that? How are you seeking justice over jazz and you know, all the funness of it. Um, how are you really trying to uphold the ancestral relationship with this practice over your own capitalism in this practice? And that's what we have to get to the heart of.
[00:26:48] So that's really what I meant when I was talking about you. This can be a part of your anti-racism journey is that it can be constantly questioning how it has upheld racist ideologies and in particular, [00:27:00] towards a group of people who were not even allowed to practice it openly and actively at one point without, um, some level of, uh, persecution. You know, how do you help honor their practice through your practice?
[00:27:16] So, so I just didn't put my hand on my heart. I just always feel like I, I just feel smarter after I talk .to Kia.
[00:27:31] Yeah, we love our time that we get to spend with you and connect with you. And we're just so honored, but, um, I think, I think that's it. And that's all. Thank you our friend for being here. We appreciate you.
[00:27:48] Thank you for listening to the Wellness Community Magic podcast. If you liked this episode, leave us a review or drop us a message and tell us your favorite part. You can find us on twitter @wellness_pod [00:28:00] or online at TRILUNAwellness.com/ podcast. Tune in next week for more tough but necessary conversations about the future of self-care.
[00:28:09] If you're interested in learning more about TRILUNA or ordering one of our wellness gift boxes for a loved one or yourself, check out our website at TRILUNAwellness.com.