Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join one of our favorite podcasters, Charlie Claire Burgess (AKA The Word Witch) for a conversation about tarot, magic, and a world beyond binaries.
If you struggle with black + white thinking, this episode is for you.
Join us next week for one of our last episodes before we close out this season!
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Full Transcript:
[00:00:00] After I started reading tarot again, is when I started to realize that I'm non-binary, you know. Like it was through learning tarot again and working with it that I was like, like just, just the gates opened and changed everything. Um, I don't think that you can like, do something like read tarot for yourself and not come closer to your truth. Man, there's like so many different things that you both just said that I wanted to respond to and now all I can think about is boobs. Yes, I did that to us. We can think about it.
[00:00:42] That was a voice of Charlie Claire Burgess, a queer and non-binary tarot reader, artist, writer, and witch. They are the creator of Fifth Spirit Tarot, a queer and inclusive deck for a world beyond binaries and the author of the book link Fifth Spirit Tarot guide. You may know them from their [00:01:00] podcast, The Word Witch, exploring tarot and magic through a queer and inclusive lens.
[00:01:05] Charlie believes in the power of tarot as a radical tool for self knowledge, healing and personal liberation. Hi everyone. We're your hosts. Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore, co-founders of TRILUNA. And this is the Wellness Community Magic podcast, a podcast with a pro donut, anti-racist, Glenda- the- good- witch agenda.
[00:01:27] We're here to take on diet culture by making self-care realistic, sustainable, and inclusive. So settle in, get cozy and join us on our journey to build community and redefine wellness. Let's get started.
[00:01:43] The icebreaker and the question that we must ask first is if you were a donut, what donut would you be and why? I love this question. And I, so here's the thing. I don't [00:02:00] actually like donuts that much because I was scandalous. Um, cause I'm not really a sweets person. I'm more of a savory person. And so I was like, I took this as a challenge and I would like Google savory donuts.
[00:02:14] I was like, they must exist. They must be out there somewhere. And so I found so many delicious sounding, savory donuts, and one of them that really stood out to me was cheddar jalapeno corn bread donut. I know. I was like, yeah. I love cheddar. I love jalapeno. I've loved corn bread. I'm originally born and raised in the South in Alabama.
[00:02:41] I was like, Yeah, that feels good. I'll I'll go with that. Yeah. It's, it's a little bit spicy, a little bit salty, which describes me. And then there's, uh, my partner and I, who loves donuts had a little bit of a back and forth about whether it was actually a donut. [00:03:00] I think it counts. He was like, I don't know.
[00:03:02] It's made of corn bread. Can it be a donut if it's made of corn bread? And I was like, it says it's a donut. Like, it doesn't say bagel. So we had this like donut versus bagle. Interesting. But then I also liked that about the donut, because it's like, it looks like a donut, but is it a donut? Is it expanding the idea of what a donut could be? We are all about redefining things over here so I love it.
[00:03:32] And I actually just so our listeners know, we know the answers before, and I just wanted you to talk through that because I found that to sound very, very good and I wanted it. And Liz is the creator of all things in the kitchen. So I was going to be like, Liz, can you, uh, whip that up in the kitchen? Yes, I can try. I will try.
[00:03:57] We, yeah, we get to see the answers beforehand. And I was so [00:04:00] thrilled, not only because it sounds delicious and all of my favorite things also, uh, but it wasn't a classic glazed, which is like no shade, like. No shade at all, but everybody says classic glazed so it's exciting to get a different response this time.
[00:04:17] I'll I'll admit I had a tip from Grace, uh, who was like, try to choose not glazed. Yeah, one of our listeners even texted us this this week and was like, Hey. So how come everyone is a glazed donut? And we were like, we have the same. We, you know, although like Liz said no shade, it's great. It's wonderful foundation donut.
[00:04:40] It's the classic. But we just wanted to actually have someone walk us through that savory sweet journey like you did and mission accomplished. Yeah. I'm happy. Well, I can, uh, it was definitely a recipe that I found, so I can, uh, try to find that again and email you the recipe so that you can. Please do, and let's put it in the [00:05:00] bio and then we can get some pictures of other people too.
[00:05:04] And you see the marketing team, they went crazy there. Did y'all see that. Did y'all see that? So Liz, want to start us off? Yeah. So since we're kind of co doing this, would you just do like a short two, three sentence intro who you are? All that kind of stuff. Yeah, sure. Um, my name's Charlie, Claire Burgess. My pronouns are they, them.
[00:05:25] I am a queer and non-binary tarot practitioner and teacher and deeck creator and writer. Um, yeah, I've uh, made a tarot deck called Fifth Spirit Taro. I have a podcast called The Word Witch podcast. And I think that that's probably most of the things I think that encapsulates it. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:53] Oh yeah. I was like, am I, am I. Okay. So we're traveling. [00:06:00] We are a pro donut, non diet, anti-racist wellness company that specializes in mental health and social justice issues. We provide wellness, curriculum, events, and retreats to corporate clients. Yeah, our, we really found a hole in the market around inclusive, accessible wellness. And so we are here to fix that problem.
[00:06:27] And can I ask what donuts you both are? Oh, yes. I'm. I might have to amend mine now and be a little bit of a copycat, but generally my answer to this is something we actually interviewed my dad on the podcast recently and he is like a very. Earthy magical kind of man, he's, uh, a Moss expert and like a very unique human.
[00:06:52] Yes. And he said classic glazed and I was like, okay, dad, like, I hear you, but. Also, and [00:07:00] also maybe you are like a Sesame donut or like matcha or something earthy. It has like really earthy depth of flavor. That's not too sweet, but maybe has like a light glaze on the top. And I think I actually want to steal a little bit of that, like a matcha, earthy matcha donut, but also I have to have sprinkles because I'm like, very into rainbow colors and shiny things right now.
[00:07:23] And so I'm a matcha donut with lots of iridescent sprinkles. Oh yes. I love that. And that's you can change, right? Yeah. Yeah. People can change and evolve and become different donuts. I feel like a different donut than I did a few months ago.
[00:07:41] I am actually going to say that I am the purest from five daughters. So five daughters, if you're hearing this, I am the purist. Um, it is the way I like to describe that it is a fluffy donut that when you bite into it, it is [00:08:00] kind of tough. Right. But once you get closer to the center, it has this cream puff filling.
[00:08:06] So as it's like harder, like edgier outside, and then when you get into the inside, it's all mushy and just. Just a big cry baby. I would say that would be me. And I also liked the look of the donut. Like it reminds me y'all are going to be like, what where's she going with? This? Like Kris Jenner can wear all black and look magnificent at all times, and this donut just has this beautiful, just classic. It's not a classic donut because the glaze on it is a little bit more sprinkling. It's like a sugary classic look. And it, no matter if you dump strawberries on top or whatever on top, it's still just this beautiful classic look. Um, like Kris Jenner in all black. It's also a layer donut. It has like a hundred layers, [00:09:00] which I feel like applies to. Yeah. Yes. So that was a lot. Yeah. Sounds like a neat donut. That's why it took so long to talk about it. We've really thought about this question.
[00:09:14] Well, I am so excited to have you on our podcast because when I first found tarot it was an explosive moment of personal and self growth for me. I had never had a tool like that. I am not in particular, a religious person. And so I was kind of seeking a little bit of structure to my spiritual practice. I was looking for some parameters or some things to work inside of in the beginning.
[00:09:38] And I found tarot and I almost immediately found you. And so my tarot journey started a lot with you and the way that you talk about taro is very different from the average person and also your writing. I'm an English major that was like my past. And so I'm really drawn to writing and your writing is [00:10:00] absolutely fun.
[00:10:01] I'm always sending it to like my dad and my sister. Cause I'm like, God, you gotta read this place, but it is so beautiful. And I've been so grateful for your influence on my personal growth journey, even though you didn't know who I was. So I wondered if you would talk a little bit about your journey to tarot and why your perspective on it is a little different.
[00:10:20] Um, first of all, I'm blushing. Thank you. Um, um, also I was an English major, so I just wanted to respond to that and like go down there. Yeah. English major. And, um, also got my master's in creative writing. You all are in Nashville, correct? Yes. At Vanderbelt. I got my master's in creative writing, so I am like very much a writer.
[00:10:42] So just like speaking words to my soul right now. Uh, yeah, so my, my tarot journey, it started when I was in high school. That's when, like a lot of folks I picked up my first deck, of course I was a high schooler in Birmingham, Alabama, and this was [00:11:00] around like 2002. So there weren't a ton of options for like places to go, to get your tarot deck or to learn about tarot or to buy like witchy books or whatever.
[00:11:13] Um, and it also, wasn't something that like, I didn't know anybody else who was doing it actually, there's this myth that you can't buy your first decade and gifted it? Well, I didn't know that cause I had like no tarot knowledge of anything. And so I went to Barnes and Noble at the mall and bought my self my first tarot deck and I also, I just think that's a total gatekeeper myth that you can't buy your own deck.
[00:11:42] You have to be gifted it, but long story short, I tried to learn how to read it at the same time that I was like starting, trying to do like a, a little like Wickens spells in the basement of my parents' house, you know, throwing like spices from their spice rack around.
[00:12:00] [00:11:59] And since I didn't have any like, community. Cause like the internet wasn't what it is now. There wasn't really social media at all. And cause I had to hide it from my parents who were Christians. I eventually kind of got freaked out and left it. Like I actually took my tarot deck and my like wicked books and threw them into the dumpster behind the mall.
[00:12:26] Uh, because I was afraid of like, I don't know. I was just afraid of being caught by my parents, etcetera. Those are the same time as like, I was discovering that like, my sexuality is queer as well. And I was like, Hmm. I like, like I like girls. And like also, I don't really feel like a girl myself and all of these things.
[00:12:51] And then. At the same time as I was getting rid of my tarot deck also kind of committed myself to the [00:13:00] conventional path that I thought was the path of least resistance, where I was like, well, it seems really hard to be a gay person in the world in 2002 in Alabama. And I didn't have like really any role models for that in my life.
[00:13:17] Um, cause I was pretty sheltered. And so I was like, Hey, it's really easy to date guys. And for guys to like me, so I'm just going to do that. And I'm going to like try to be the person that's like that I thought would be accepted. Or like, uh, like loved or appreciated by people and by society. And so at the same time, as I kind of abandoned tarot and magic and stuff, I also abandoned like myself.
[00:13:43] And tried to like become someone I wasn't. And so for me, tarot, and like my queerness and my spirituality and just like my truth are all tied up together. Cause then when I found tarot again and my late twenties, it all, it all came back. Like it all happened at the [00:14:00] same time. Like I, after I started reading tarot again is when I started to realize that I'm non binary, you know, like it was through learning tarot again and working with it that I was like, like just, just the gates opened and changed everything.
[00:14:16] Um, I don't think that you can like do something like read tarot for yourself and not come closer to your truth, you know, to like who you truly are. Yeah, we, we always talk about tarot too, as like a tool of self discovery.
[00:14:33] We really believe that it's a way to like ask yourself deeper, better questions. When you say that it like crack that open for you, it helped you start on that journey. What did that look like? How did that feel or come about? Oh man. So this is a juicy story. Um, uh, a new friend gave me a tarot reading after we had gone to the Renaissance Fair together.
[00:14:58] And like I'm talking like brand new friend. This [00:15:00] was like the second time we ever hung out and during the course of that tarot reading, it was not actually my first interaction with tarot since I had left it, but was the first like meaningful one that I had. And like he put the cards on the table and was sort of guiding me through what they were saying.
[00:15:18] And I was feeling this huge resistance inside me because the cards were saying like, there's something blocking you. Like, there's something. Something needs to fall away. There's some sort of block that's keeping you from being who you really are or who you could be or something like that.
[00:15:34] And I could just feel myself throwing up all these walls because I knew what it was, but I didn't want to know what it was. And I think that's one of the things that tarot does, it confronts us with the things that we already know but are ignoring. And so for me, that thing was my marriage at the time.
[00:15:58] And by the end of that [00:16:00] reading, I was like bawling because I was like, I have to get a divorce, like. I like, I knew it when I was like driving home that night. I was like, there was such clarity there too. Like I was crying because of like the grief of it, but, but just the clarity of that decision and of knowing what I needed to do next for myself and for my life and for my happiness was just unmistakable.
[00:16:28] And so I got a divorce for many other reasons. It wasn't because like a tarot reading told me so. Right. But the process of, of having that reading and sort of sitting with myself for like the answers of like, what is that thing that's, that's holding me back. It like, tarot makes a space available I think for us to sort of interrogate those, those areas and those questions and sort of face them and come to terms with them.
[00:16:57] And it, it. It does it in a way, [00:17:00] like I think that the, having the medium of the cards themselves, like these cards with these images on it and words and titles are almost like a, like a medium, like a gateway to allow us to do that in a way that we can't otherwise through like, like rational conscious thinking.
[00:17:16] You know, like by taking it into the land of image and stuff like that, it sort of shifts the brain, I think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And we get a lot of fear around tarot when we talk about it. You know, we're, we're also in the deep South and there's a lot of fear around it and we always say, Terrell cannot tell you anything that you don't already know, but that won't mean that it isn't scary to look at.
[00:17:42] Yes. You know, it can be scary and it can be intimidating, but it's not, it's not making things happen to you. It's just exactly like you said, creating that space for those truths to be revealed to you if you're ready for them. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Right. And well said, well said. [00:18:00] Cause I think that that is really important to acknowledge and sometimes we'll try to like, I don't know, make some of the more difficult cards or experiences more like fluffy and like happy and relatable because of fear.
[00:18:16] Right. When what we really need to do is acknowledge that like, sometimes things suck, like sometimes things are painful and that's just a true, and if we were working with a deck of cards that didn't acknowledge that, then what use would it be? Right. Right. We need something that's able to reflect. The range of human experience which includes pain and grief and, and fear and anxiety, etcetera.
[00:18:48] That's how it serves us the best. I think is, is being able to be all these things. And with that I think comes the acknowledgement that the quote "bad cards" or [00:19:00] quote "scary cards" even while I just said all that are also not necessarily bad. Right? Like what does a difficult experience do but make you grow?
[00:19:14] Absolutely. That was beautifully said. I would love to know what led you to create your own first deck. Oh, to create Fifth Spirit? Yeah. Thank you. Um, well, so it happened by accident. Like I didn't intentionally go, I shall start a deck and this is what it shall be. Um, I had done a ritual on, on the Aquarius new moon in 2019.
[00:19:44] Um, cause I like felt this thing brewing or coming and, but I didn't know what it was. And so I did a ritual talk to my guides. I was like, what is the thing? I'm ready! And that evening just started. I picked up my, um, ancient [00:20:00] iPad and just started doodling on it with my finger, like a drawing app. Um, which was, I never did.
[00:20:06] It was very uncharacteristic of me to even touch that machine, which was only used for Netflix at that point. Um, and after a few doodles, I looked at it and realized like, Holy crap, that's an ACE of cups. Like I just drew an ACE of cups and I was like, is this the thing like. Am I creating a deck now? And it was so surprising because I didn't think of myself as an artist.
[00:20:31] So like, while I had a desire to create a deck, I didn't ever think I could actually do it. I just didn't think that was a possibility for me. I was like, maybe I'll collaborate with an artist or something one day. And well, I, this happened, I was like, I guess I'm doing it anyway. And so like along the course of making the deck, I learned how to do art, um, which was remarkable, but as I started making it, [00:21:00] I had to think about what I wanted it to be and sort of what I wanted it to contribute to tarot.
[00:21:08] Um, and in tarot for a very long time, for forever, there've been, uh, various problems, uh, such as most tarot decks, the vast majority, still today are composed of like all white people on the cards, all like "conventionally attractive", you know, in air quotes, people like thin bodies, etcetera.
[00:21:35] Um, and they're all very CIS heteronormative. You know, all CIS people, heterosexual couples, and they even use things like gender as metaphors for say, nurturing or softness or submission, uh, that big, you know, thing that traditional tarot decks align with [00:22:00] female representation. And then the men are strong and authority and logical etcetera.
[00:22:05] They use these things as metaphors in ways that just reinforce the harmful gender binary and, uh, stereotyping, etcetera. And so I was like, well, I want to, I want to contribute something, be one of the people that contribute something to try to evolve the tarot. I think that it can be a really helpful tool for facing those things actually for facing things like, um, misogyny, gender roles, gender stereotyping, etcetera, because like they're present in some of the archetypes.
[00:22:44] Right? Right. So through working with taro and evolving it. We're kind of like evolving the way that we think about these things to where we can be. Right. And so, yeah, so that's why I decided to do the humans that I [00:23:00] illustrate in the deck in the way that I did in an effort to be one person who was trying to move that needle a little bit.
[00:23:07] So how did you replace them? Can you give an example of what you replaced? Yeah, so, um, there's a lot of queer decks out there, first of all. And a lot of them do this really cool thing with the titles on the cards. So there's some of the cards that I'm talking about specifically are like the impress, the emperor also like King and queen.
[00:23:30] Cause these are very gendered titles, right. So a lot of decks we'll do a cool thing where they like, uh, they change the title to something that is non-gendered. So like, Uh, the emperor might become like the, the navigator or, you know, into something that's not, um, gendered, but instead of doing that, and also because I couldn't come up with any, any better titles than what some of the geniuses out there have already come up with, [00:24:00] I decided to sort of queer those titles by queering the imagery on the cards.
[00:24:06] So, cause I think that the problem isn't just with the names. The problem is with the way that we gender the archetypes themselves and like the ideas themselves. Like we can put a different name on the Empress, but still associate the Empress with women or with femininity and still associate that archetype with like, uh, caregiving and emotionality and stuff like that.
[00:24:37] And these things. Caregiving, emotionality, etcetera, these are the things that everybody has. It has nothing to do with like reproductive organs. Right. Right. And so on the empress, I kept the titles, empress,emperor, king, queen, but like on the empress on my deck, there's a person who is [00:25:00] like body language wise, like really embracing that like sort of receiving energy of the Empress but uh, has a, a flat chest, a flat male chest.
[00:25:10] The emperor has a beard and breasts. Um, and then on some of the court cards, I've just kind of like troubled or queered the imagery in order to be like men can be Queens or masculine presenting people can be Queens. Uh, women or fem presenting people can be Kings.
[00:25:31] None of this has anything to do with gender. Yeah. One of my favorite cards of yours that you posted on your Instagram recently is transition. And it's like a hand moving through these different phases. And it's like a normal looking hand on the end in the beginning, but in the middle, it's like all these rainbow colors.
[00:25:49] And as you know, I'm very drawn to the imagery of that, but will you talk through how you did that? I always, I've just listened to, I really listen to our podcast recently and then realized that I say, can you talk [00:26:00] about like a hundred times an episode? So will you explain, is that the same thing? How about I say it?
[00:26:07] Will you talk about, can you talk us through that please? Certainly. Uh, so that card is, uh, from a new deck that I'm working on. It's going to be an Oracle deck. It's based on the 52 or 54 card playing, playing card deck like we play solitaire and poker with and stuff. Um, and like, what are you curious about, like how I created the image or my thinking behind the image?
[00:26:34] Both. Yes to all. Um, so, uh, short answer for how I created it is, uh, I create my art digitally. Uh, so I illustrate it on an iPad with a stylist. So I like draw it all with my little pin, but it is digital. Which I have to remind myself sometimes is still art [00:27:00] because I find myself under cutting it. And, uh, I do it that way because I have no traditional art training.
[00:27:07] So, like, I literally don't know how to put paint on a canvas. Same. So while I've I've drawn, like ink sketches and stuff my whole life, like no clue how to no clue how to do like traditional art mediums. That image that you're talking about for transition. I like the, what most of the time happens is the images just sort of, I don't know.
[00:27:33] Come to me, like I just will have an image in my head and then sit down and try to recreate it. And for the transition card, um, Hmm. I haven't tried to like verbalize this before. So when we think about transition, uh, and I'm talking like transition as in any sort of time, when, when anybody is moving from sort of one place to another place. Figuratively [00:28:00] or literally, there's a change that happens.
[00:28:03] There's a journey. There's like an in-between place. Right. Um, and I'm also talking here about like transitioning as like a transgender person, you know, there's, there's, uh, there's this like messy in between middle where things are in flux when and where you're not quite in one place or in the other place.
[00:28:24] And we tend to skip that a lot or like, not skip it, but not want to think about it. It's like, we're always looking at the goal, like at the end point, the destination. Right. And just can't wait to get there when in fact, I think in those liminal in-between places, there's so much just rich opportunity for discovery and for self discovery, for learning, for becoming in new unexpected, surprising ways, you know, and it can be painful [00:29:00] certainly, but there's also just so much beauty there.
[00:29:02] Yeah. Yeah. And so that's what I was trying to illustrate with that image of their. It's sort of like a hand going through sort of what looks like, maybe like a glass box, but it's not glass, but it on the inside and the, in between it's all like rainbow colored. So that's what I was trying to illustrate.
[00:29:20] And that's actually where rainbow started coming into the deck. And so now there's, there's a lot of, uh, sort of rainbow theme in that deck. Yeah. I love that. It makes me think to our friend Sam Jump who's also an incredible writer, posted and this was a long time ago and it has stuck with me for so long, but she said it's important not to rush during the unfolding.
[00:29:42] And that has like stuck with me. Like it literally like makes me want to cry a little bit every time I think about it cause it's just such a beautifully worded sentiment about something that we so often skip or miss over, miss out on. Right. Yeah. And while we're talking about transition, I'm just [00:30:00] sitting here and I'm thinking about the younger you throwing your terrible books in the garbage, you know, and I, I listen to you now and it's so much magic.
[00:30:12] It's so much like this. I could just sit here. Like, that's why I've been quiet the whole, cause I've really been enjoying the conversation, but like, what would you tell your younger self about magic and tarot then?
[00:30:26] No, if you could go back. Thank you for that question cause it's, that's actually part of like, sort of the work I've started doing recently, which is sort of like inner child work or younger self-work which I've avoided for a very long time. Cause it was like one of the last frontiers. I was like, Oh, that's so scary.
[00:30:46] I can't touch that. But I've been thinking about that question. And I was like, first of all, I had told my younger self that I'm a little bad-ass because I was, I was like, you know, giving it the good fight, refused to [00:31:00] do cotillion. Just straight up refuse, even though both my brothers had to do it, but, uh, I would tell my younger self that no one knows anything.
[00:31:10] Like all the people who are trying to tell you what the right answer is or what the "truth" is. Everyone's just stabbing at meaning. Everybody's just trying to come up with answers and come up with meaning. Just like, just like you are just like I am, right. So much of what sort of took me away from my path was people basically making me feel like I was stupid or wrong for, for believing what I did or ever being interested in what I was interested in.
[00:31:43] And I would internalize that and sort of turn it on myself and started thinking like, you know, I went full on like atheist for many, many years after that. And like, not the cool kind of atheist, but like the kind of atheist that [00:32:00] calls people sheeple. You know, and just is like mean and it looks down on people who believe in anything, because I had just internalized that messaging so much.
[00:32:10] Right. There's so much space for, for belief and for magic and like, who cares? If you're going to believe in something, it might as well be something that is fun and like weird and magical and something that helps you and that makes you more compassionate towards other people and so much fighting and strife in the world comes from people trying to make other people believe that they're right.
[00:32:46] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm really glad that Ashley brought that example up specifically because we, Ashley and I have different faith backgrounds. We experienced the world with different religions and, and that is morphing and changing for [00:33:00] both and all of us all the time, I think.
[00:33:02] But we've had. People are genuinely surprised by that, that we can share this space with different faith backgrounds, especially when it comes to tarot. Yeah. But I think that all starts. I know for me personally, being a Christian, I think yoga helped me be in the space. You know, I meet so many people with different religious backgrounds and they are some of my best friends, you know, and then like, I love the way you put it.
[00:33:29] If you're going to believe in something, why not let it be something fun and I've redefined what looking like a Christian looks like to me, you know, I've never been this close to God in my life. And that's through the use of using my tarot and Oracle cards because I'm able to pull back that fear and bring the truth to him and seek the things that I need that I request.
[00:33:51] Um, and so. I said him I'm even working on that as well. Like that's what I've been taught. And so [00:34:00] just understanding that as well. And I think, like you said, so many people just want to be right about something. And if we give people just the freedom to find their own way, like just believe it's their way and it's going to be the best way for them.
[00:34:16] Yeah. And that's why we started this company from a wellness perspective. We, we kept getting all this like prescriptive advice that made no sense for our lives whatsoever, and we were so tired of it. We didn't see representation of inclusive wellness. We didn't see a place where we could get started and not feel like a boob, you know, like it just like, feel like.
[00:34:45] Okay, we'll go with that. I don't know why that's what came to mind. That's been what I'm actually looking at. I think it's the boobs on the painting right now? Um, yeah, I mean, it was, there was no space that felt [00:35:00] inclusive and welcoming if I didn't drink the Kool-Aid or, or engage in the dogmatic vision of it.
[00:35:06] And we wanted to create a wellness that was really deeply rooted and grounded and bio-individuality and the acknowledgement that everyone is unique and need something unique and is allowed to define that for themselves. Yeah, and we are better if we put ourselves in situations where we can learn more about other people's beliefs and what, you know, I forgot the second word I was going to use.
[00:35:32] I'm still thinking about boobs to be honest. Yeah. I'm like stuck on it now.
[00:35:39] Now I'm thinking about boobs. Now everybody is.
[00:35:50] I love it. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's just, it's the same in, in religion, in wellness, in food, all of this for us, it's like, it must [00:36:00] necessarily involve discussion of individuality at every level. I agree. And that's what we tell people when we talk about tarot too. You know, it's like, this is your journey and you can.
[00:36:11] No one can tell you how to read the cards. The only way to do tarot wrong in my opinion, is to read for someone else and tell them that this is the truth. Any other thing in tarot is up to you to decide how that resonates with you and in your life. Yeah. And it's up to you to build that relationship with whatever, you know, you feel comfortable with.
[00:36:33] I tell a lot of people who aren't ready for that hard truth, because that's what it is. Like you said in the beginning, looking at the hard truth and being afraid of that, you know, I do believe Oracle cards give you that little grace into the space, but still we got to get to a point where we can be real with ourselves because we just show up as better individuals and I think tarot, Oracle cards are a wonderful resource for that.
[00:36:59] Yeah. [00:37:00] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Agreed. And man, there's like so many different things that you both just said that I wanted to respond to and now all I can think about is boobs. Yes, I did that to us. All we can think about is boobs.
[00:37:18] Y'all know this what's going to be on the audio part. All I can think about is boobs.
[00:37:27] Totally okay with that, Grace. I would, I would love know, actually so I mean, in the name of your podcast is it has the word magic in it. And I think that you both answered this question a little bit already, but I would love to know for each of you, what magic means to you? And if you have a magical practice, like what that looks like.
[00:37:54] Yes. That's a great question. Go for it, Liz. Okay. So I've been thinking about this a lot [00:38:00] lately and my definition of this changes all the time, but right now for me, it really is exactly what we talked about earlier. The alchemical process of transformation that happens in the in-between. You know, it's like when you're building muscle or whatever, it's like, it's actually these like tiny little tears that happen.
[00:38:18] And then your muscle grows larger as a result of that. And that to me feels like magic. Like that's like a very visceral example of what magic is in my life. Like the little tears and the struggles and the getting it wrong and then, and then doing the work and figuring it out and doing better the next time and growing and expanding my consciousness and making myself and the space around me more aware and more inclusive and more in the service of more individuality, more growth, more peace, whatever that is. That's become my definition of magic for right now.
[00:38:56] I'm going to roll with that too. No, I'm just kidding. Say like [00:39:00] she keeps talking and that she keeps hitting on. So I'm going to, I actually, I agree with a lot of that is that in-between phase because as a company and as business partners, we're growing and we're learning each other.
[00:39:11] And one of the biggest, the hardest parts of our job is we offer diversity and inclusion courses, you know, as a black woman and a white woman. And there's always things that we're growing through. It's always incidents, always conversations that allow us to grow and to think about where we started and where we are.
[00:39:32] It's pretty magical. And we have been able to use our journey and reflect that and share our story to help other people grow in their magic. I also feel magic is becoming, like you said, becoming what it is that you set your intentions too. I'm a firm believer of writing things down, speaking things into the universe and becoming what I said I'm going to become. The practice of that is [00:40:00] for me personally, is being grounded, staying connected.
[00:40:03] And I do that through the practice of yoga. I started yoga over 10 years ago. I became certified over six years ago, and it is just, it just allows me to go into this place of just peace. Even when I'm teaching. I, I just can't even remember what happens within the hour. And that's just allowing myself that sense of clarity.
[00:40:26] We talked about it. Oracle cards have played a big part of my life and I'll thank Liz to that because it wasn't a practice of mine until we started becoming business partners, but it was something that she allowed space for me to grow my own relationship with. And I found a relationship with it and I'm a person of masking, putting it to the back.
[00:40:48] And this practice has really allowed me to shine light on my mental health and helping me work my way out of it. Yeah, we use lots of tools. We refer to [00:41:00] them as tools like our crystals and our tarot and our journaling and all that kind of stuff. And we, I kind of am influx with them right now. Like I have one deck that I'm using and I just bought your book that like ,guidebook, I'm very excited about, but I'm very, very, very particular about what decks I'll use right now because I feel very drawn to specific things.
[00:41:22] Like the deck that I'm using right now is all women. It's like a, a women's deck, uh, and it talks about their history and their, so it is like a gender deck, but it is, I found that removing masculine images was what I needed in the moment. And it talks about their achievements and their accomplishments and their grace and their fortitude.
[00:41:46] And I found myself very drawn to that kind of magic right now. So I'm using that one and I'm using it sparingly. So I used to do like a daily poll and I'm sure I'll come back into that space at some point. But right now I am [00:42:00] doing like once a week maybe. And I'm kind of letting that guide my week and let it really sink in and settle and figure out.
[00:42:07] And if I don't pull the judgment card almost every time, for it's been almost a year and a half. Cause it was, it was middle of last year. It has come up for me so many times. And so I I'm trying not to like, just keep pushing through that and just keep pulling more cards and keep, you know, so my, my practice right now really is looking at like, because that card in a lot of decks is about duality, right?
[00:42:36] It's about the like black and white, where I feel more like what it's calling me to do right now is look at shades of gray. It's like asking me to look at how I'm using black and white thinking or binary thinking when that isn't what's called for that isn't what's needed or that isn't, what's actually helpful to me in the moment.
[00:42:57] So I'm trying to sit with that tool right now and figure [00:43:00] that out. Yeah. One thing that I wanted to, to respond to Elizabeth, that you were talking about with your deck, that you're using, that has all women in it. Um, there's an idea when we talk about non-binary anything that all gender is bad and that's not true.
[00:43:21] Like that's, so that's just something that I want to like state for the listeners, because that's a resistance that a lot of people have when just they learn about non binary people. They're just like, Oh, does that mean that all gender is bad? Does that mean that my gender is bad or false? Like, no, not at all.
[00:43:37] Gender is wonderful. Gender is beautiful. My, my partner is a transgender man. So he identifies as a man. He is a man. And I am non binary. So I'm like, I don't get gender. I don't get binary gender, but we can both have genders in our own different ways and [00:44:00] understand gender in different ways. And there's absolutely no problem with that.
[00:44:03] Like both those things can exist, which is also non-binary thinking, right? Like that's, that's what that is. So I want to just respond to that for the listeners. It is beautiful to like use a deck that has all images of women and femmes in it, or I don't know. I think there's some, well, yes, there are decks with all men in them which is most tarot decks.
[00:44:30] Using a thing that makes you feel good about yourself and or gender or, or whatever it is. That's a good thing, right? Like there's room for that. Yeah. And also, uh, Ashley, it was something that you were saying. So one of the definitions or way that ways that we can think about magic is just like anything that causes a change.
[00:44:53] It's like applying your will to, into the world to cause a change in the world. Right. [00:45:00] And so when you were talking about what y'all offer with like all of your offer offerings, but especially with like, uh, diversity and inclusivity and anti-racism work and trainings. Like, that's also magic. Like you are applying your, your will and your perspective and, and your energy into the world in order to create a change.
[00:45:26] Right? Yeah. And that's, that's fucking magic. Beautifully said. Thank you. I appreciate that. Do you feel like you're creating magic when you do that? I do. Yeah, I do, even though it's hard, you know, but it, it, it takes someone like yourself to tell us that the, so we remember what we are doing is magic because we know it, but just like anything, it gets buried back when you're in the work and it's hard to see sometimes.
[00:45:58] So we really appreciate you for [00:46:00] that. Yeah. Well magic, there's a sacrifice or like there's energy. You have to put energy into magic. Right? You can't get something out of nothing. So the work and the difficulty and all that, like it's. That's part of it.
[00:46:15] Yeah. That's part of it. Yeah. It's that middle part you're speaking on earlier, just I'm going to get right to the finish line, but it's working through that middle part that is so needed and so necessary. Yes. Yeah. It's the middle of the donut, the middle of that, that going through that.
[00:46:38] Y'all trying to, I will not cry on this one. I've cried on a lot of these podcasts, but you are not breaking this hard shell today. Well, we are getting the message that we needed to, to wrap. But before we do that, you have this one piece of writing from your Instagram that I was hoping that I could read.
[00:46:56] And then if you want it, if you wanted to read it in your voice, you could as well. [00:47:00] And then just have you talk about what that meant to you and why you wrote it. Okay, cool. Okay. Go, shoot, go ahead. This is my thing, right? This is one of the ones that I sent to my dad and my sister, and it says "though this night is long and full of ghosts. I am alive. I am a living, breathing flame. I am a spark of the sun. I am the Herald of my own dawning and look, my light breaks."
[00:47:28] I just think that is so powerful. And I read that when I was doing a lot of my own, let's call it shadow work and looking at a lot of my own ghosts and it just spoke to me on, on such a deep, personal level.
[00:47:41] And I think it's so beautifully constructed. Thank you. Um, so that was an amazing, just experience to, to hear you read that back to me, just. Just, I wanted to say that first of all, and also this weird thing happens sometimes where like, I'll [00:48:00] write something and then not forget that I wrote it, but when I hear it read back to me I'm like, wait, I wrote that? It happened with a friend recently who was reading part of the, like the hermit injury from my guidebook on Instagram.
[00:48:16] And I was listening to it. Oh, that's really good. Like, yeah, this person knows what I was like, Oh shit that's me. But I can't actually remember what post it was that I put that on. But those words and those lines also come out of my own really sort of grief work as we all have of, I've had a lot of grief this year and that grief is of course related to, to lose losing people, to COVID, to various other losses, to just hardship and stress and things like that.
[00:48:53] But also grieving. Just, I feel like over the past several years [00:49:00] as I've been in a better place in my life. I've also been sort of grieving things that I couldn't before when I was like in the shit when I was like, just trying to survive. Right. When we're just surviving, there's not really place to grieve or time to, and so we can put it off and put it off. And so like this like shedding or transformation, or I have felt at times that I'm just like burping grief or something, just like, Hmm.
[00:49:31] Just like letting it out. And one thing that I also have felt during all that is just the intensity of my own spirit. Like that wants to survive. That is surviving. That is, is also pure and good and whole like in there somewhere like existing, alongside all of this stuff. And as sort [00:50:00] of the like veils of, of grief and of shame and of shadow work and all that are coming down like that, that light just shows more and more.
[00:50:11] Right. And it's been in there all along, but it's getting brighter and brighter. I don't know. No, that was beautifully said. I mean, if you put that on a piece of art, I will buy it on anything. I'm just putting that into the universe and seeing what comes out of it. I just think that you and Liz should probably do an audio book together because just hearing both of you talk back and forth, your voices, I'm a fan.
[00:50:37] Well, Charlie, I have to let you know that I am just as in love with you as Liz. I'm glad that we have this opportunity and Grace, I mean, cause they were, I mean, I kind of felt unprepared because they were like, this is going to be great. I'm super excited for Thursday. Like I've been up all morning, like reading through everything and making sure that I [00:51:00] didn't miss the Mark.
[00:51:01] Obviously Liz would send me your things from Instagram all the time and it was just. I believe in the work that you're doing, and I appreciate you. And I really appreciate you just being here with us and taking the time to walk us through your journey and share your story with us. It feels really good.
[00:51:21] And it feels just for someone who has been doing this, you know, for a while, even when. You know, it wasn't the thing. And for someone like myself who is new, it's just, it's just reassuring that the magic and the things that I do to bring me back to a place of grounding. I mean, it just feels really good to hear you talk through that.
[00:51:45] And I'm just really grateful. So thank you. Thank you so much, Ashley and Elizabeth. Um, I was so happy to have this invitation and to share this conversation with you both, because like, if you think I haven't learned [00:52:00] some things and like that I'm not leaving this with stuff to like chew on and digest and just integrate like, Oh my gosh, this conversation is incredible.
[00:52:12] And I'm so glad to have discovered both of you and what you do and, and your business and your podcasts. I've been listening to past episodes of your podcast of this podcast. This is just incredible. Thank you both so incredibly much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And you will be the first person that we call when we decided to do our first deck, you know you will be.
[00:52:39] So we thank you again. Grace, do you want to say anything? No, I'm good. She's down here.
[00:52:49] Well, thank you so much. And I hope there's an in-person donut and coffee meeting in our, our future when the world gets, gosh, you better believe it. Yeah. I actually want [00:53:00] that cornbread down night. I will find that recipe. I'm going to send you that link. Well, guys, I think that's it. And that's all. Peace out.
[00:53:12] Thank you for listening to Wellness Community Magic. This season is coming to a close soon while we work on some big projects, but you can keep up with us by following us on Instagram @triluna_wellness, or signing up for our newsletter at TRILUNAwellness.com. You can also join our community on patreon @patreon.com/wellnesspodcast for early access to episodes, behind the scenes content and additional wellness resources, including a PDF of our Downdogs to Donuts workbook. Stay tuned for more updates and keep an eye out for us on clubhouse as well.